This mailing list is no longer active and has been transitioned to discuss@1net.org. Members of the I-coordination mailing list have been moved to the new mailing list. To learn more, visit 1net.org.

[I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]

Klaus Stoll kdrstoll at gmail.com
Wed Dec 18 11:20:02 CET 2013


Friends

Even if it looks like killing sacred cows and some of us might not like 
it, but we should take Avri's suggestion very serious. Things need to be 
seen in a new light and if we fail to do so and just tweak the light 
bulbs, we will ultimately fail. Let's at least try to find new 
perspectives that reflect the situation today, not 5-10-20 years ago. A 
year is a long time in politics and its much longer in IG.

Yours

Klaus

n 12/18/2013 4:04 AM, avri wrote:
> Hi,
>
> No need to go back and try and change old documents. They are a 
> background we need to build on.
>
> The power pay is in the role and responsibilities and the insistence 
> some nations put on the notion of sovereignty signifying sore 
> responsibility for public policy; with the rest off us being 
> responsible for various choirs, and civil society relegated to local 
> and national housekeeping.
>
> Whether it is in WGEC (UNCSTD working group on enhanced cooperation) 
> or in Brazil or the IGF, we need to treat these definitions as drafts 
> that are outliving their usefulness and need to be revised.
>
> As for the risk, as long we are stuck with bad definitions we aren't 
> going to get anywhere. I think that may be a greater risk.
>
> I don't have text in my back pocket, and think every stakeholder group 
> should have a hand in defining its role and responsibilities. Though 
> off course we need to work together on compatible definitions of roles 
> and responsibilities.
>
> The first step, though, is to de-sanctify the language of the Tunis 
> Agenda. It is a draft, not final writ.
>
>
> avri
>
> Sent from a T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Peter H. Hellmonds" <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>
> Date: 12/17/2013 21:20 (GMT-05:00)
> To: avri <avri at acm.org>
> Cc: i-coordination at nro.net
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet 
> governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]
>
>
> Ok, point taken. I was merely pointing out that there is no guessing 
> what wS originally behind this phrase. But, since we're in the 
> discussion, which I like because this phrase has irked me since Tunis, 
> let me take this further and ask:
>
> A) If we were to revisit and revise the Geneva Declaration (since the 
> roles and responsibilities section was introduced here, and was only 
> reiterated on the WGIG and in the Tunis Agenda), which roles and 
> responsibilities are incorrectly or insufficiently described and how 
> could they be corrected to be brought in line with current factual 
> roles and responsibilities? Do you have specific language you could 
> contribute?
>
> B) what would we gain (or lose) if we were to reopen closed 
> negotiations on one definition? Would this not perhaps open Pandora's 
> box for all sorts of power grabs? We're we it quite happy at the 
> balance struck in Geneva and Tunis which widely recognized the need 
> Multistakeholder participation?
>
> C) Is it necessary to redefine these roles in order to get to a better 
> understanding of how we can cooperate better? Or is it not perhaps 
> more useful to recognize that people and institutions wear many hats, 
> play different roles simultaneously?
>
> Best
> Peter
>
> Peter H. Hellmonds
> <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu <mailto:peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>>
> +49 (160) 360-2852
>
> On 18.12.2013, at 02:04, avri <avri at acm.org <mailto:avri at acm.org>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The respective rules as defined by governments do not reflect the 
> actual roles of the various stakeholder groups.
>
> This is a false underpinning to participatory governance, currently 
> termed multistakeholderism. If one stakeholder can get away with 
> misdefining
> the roles and responsibility of all the other stakeholders, it makes 
> working together almost impossible.
>
> This is one of the flaws in the Tunis Agenda, a document that should 
> be seen as a conversation starter, not as a final religious text. 
>  Governments got together in Geneva & Tunis, they allowed a few of us 
> 'lobby' them from the side lines and from just outside the tent, and 
> then declared their own special role while minimizing the roles of 
> everyone else.
>
>
> avri
>
> Sent from a T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Peter H. Hellmonds" <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu 
> <mailto:peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>>
> Date: 12/17/2013 18:22 (GMT-05:00)
> To: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca <mailto:ca at cafonso.ca>>
> Cc: i-coordination at nro.net <mailto:i-coordination at nro.net>
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet 
> governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]
>
>
> The "respective roles" are all enumerated in the Geneva Declaration of 
> Principles.
>
> Peter H. Hellmonds
> <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu <mailto:peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>>
> +49 (160) 360-2852
>
> On 17.12.2013, at 17:41, "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca 
> <mailto:ca at cafonso.ca>> wrote:
>
> I agree with Milton. Not only revised -- we need to establish what are
> these respective roles exactly *in the view of each stakeholder*. It
> will be fun... :)
>
> --c.a.
>
> > On 12/17/2013 02:29 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> > I agree with Jeremy.
> > Unless Brian and other IETF folks are going to take a crash course 
> in international relations, political science, and institutional 
> economics, their efforts to come up with a definition of 'governance' 
> is likely to fall far short.
> >
> > However, there is one aspect of the definition that badly needs to 
> be revised. That is the reference to the "respective roles" of 
> different stakeholder groups. As noted in my response to Adam, the 
> division of stakeholders into "roles" was a reactionary modification 
> of the definition insisted upon in the early stages of WSIS by a 
> coalition of authoritarian and more conservative-thinking governments. 
> We can and should revisit that part of the standard definition.
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: i-coordination-bounces at nro.net 
> <mailto:i-coordination-bounces at nro.net> 
> [i-coordination-bounces at nro.net 
> <mailto:i-coordination-bounces at nro.net>] on behalf of Jeremy Malcolm 
> [jeremy at ciroap.org <mailto:jeremy at ciroap.org>]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:51 AM
> > To: i-coordination at nro.net <mailto:i-coordination at nro.net>
> > Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet 
> governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]
> >
> > On 17/12/13 08:45, George Sadowsky wrote:
> > The WGIG definition of Internet governance, the result of meetings 
> in 2004-5, was the result of political compromise.  I think that it is 
> not helping us here.  AS Brian says below, the notion of Internet 
> governance mixes up too many things, and does not seem to be useful 
> for addressing real issues.
> >
> > Can we come up with a different vocabulary and a somewhat different 
> structure that is much more consistent with our problem space, so that 
> these different issues don't get confused (and yes, I understand that 
> there may well be overlap between them)?
> >
> > Brian, can you suggest some appropriate vocabulary and/or taxonomy?
> >
> > The wording of the WGIG definition of Internet governance is almost 
> identical to a widely cited definition of an international regime that 
> has a considerable body of theory behind it.  So I would hesitate to 
> throw it out because it is unfamiliar or threatening to those who are 
> more familiar with technical aspects of Internet governance.
> >
> > I also don't think that redefining the terms of the debate now, when 
> governments and other stakeholders have already become comfortable 
> with those terms and have been operating under them for years, is 
> going to bring the stakeholders any closer together, if that is 
> something that 1net is aiming to do.
> >
> > If the terminology does not fit well with the technical community's 
> self-defined problem-space, or seems to extend to issues that you 
> think are not "real issues", then maybe it is that that problem space 
> is too narrow, rather than that the terminology is inappropriate or 
> that those broader issues are not real.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Dr Jeremy Malcolm
> > Senior Policy Officer
> > Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers
> > Office for Asia-Pacific and the Middle East
> > Lot 5-1 Wisma WIM, 7 Jalan Abang Haji Openg, TTDI, 60000 Kuala 
> Lumpur, Malaysia
> > Tel: +60 3 7726 1599
> >
> > Explore our new Resource Zone - the global consumer movement 
> knowledge hub | 
> http://www.consumersinternational.org/news-and-media/resource-zone
> >
> > @Consumers_Int | www.consumersinternational.org 
> <http://www.consumersinternational.org><http://www.consumersinternational.org> 
> | www.facebook.com/consumersinternational 
> <http://www.facebook.com/consumersinternational><http://www.facebook.com/consumersinternational>
> >
> > Read our email confidentiality 
> notice<http://www.consumersinternational.org/email-confidentiality>. 
> Don't print this email unless necessary.
> >
> > WARNING: This email has not been encrypted. You are strongly 
> recommended to enable PGP or S/MIME encryption at your end. For 
> instructions, see http://jere.my/l/8m.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > I-coordination mailing list
> > I-coordination at nro.net <mailto:I-coordination at nro.net>
> > https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-coordination mailing list
> I-coordination at nro.net <mailto:I-coordination at nro.net>
> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-coordination mailing list
> I-coordination at nro.net <mailto:I-coordination at nro.net>
> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-coordination mailing list
> I-coordination at nro.net <mailto:I-coordination at nro.net>
> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-coordination mailing list
> I-coordination at nro.net
> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: https://nro.net/pipermail/i-coordination/attachments/20131218/8a5f9f78/attachment-0001.html 


More information about the I-coordination mailing list