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[I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]

avri avri at acm.org
Wed Dec 18 04:04:55 CET 2013


Hi,

No need to go back and try and change old documents. They are a background we need to build on.

The power pay is in the role and responsibilities and the insistence some nations put on the notion of sovereignty signifying sore responsibility for public policy; with the rest off us being responsible for various choirs, and civil society relegated to local and national housekeeping.

Whether it is in WGEC (UNCSTD working group on enhanced cooperation) or in Brazil or the IGF, we need to treat these definitions as drafts that are outliving their usefulness and need to be revised.

As for the risk, as long we are stuck with bad definitions we aren't going to get anywhere. I think that may be a greater risk.

I don't have text in my back pocket, and think every stakeholder group should have a hand in defining its role and responsibilities. Though off course we need to work together on compatible definitions of roles and responsibilities.

The first step, though, is to de-sanctify the language of the Tunis Agenda. It is a draft, not final writ.


avri

Sent from a T-Mobile 4G LTE Device

-------- Original message --------
From: "Peter H. Hellmonds" <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu> 
Date: 12/17/2013  21:20  (GMT-05:00) 
To: avri <avri at acm.org> 
Cc: i-coordination at nro.net 
Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?] 
 
Ok, point taken. I was merely pointing out that there is no guessing what wS originally behind this phrase. But, since we're in the discussion, which I like because this phrase has irked me since Tunis, let me take this further and ask:

A) If we were to revisit and revise the Geneva Declaration (since the roles and responsibilities section was introduced here, and was only reiterated on the WGIG and in the Tunis Agenda), which roles and responsibilities are incorrectly or insufficiently described and how could they be corrected to be brought in line with current factual roles and responsibilities? Do you have specific language you could contribute?

B) what would we gain (or lose) if we were to reopen closed negotiations on one definition? Would this not perhaps open Pandora's box for all sorts of power grabs? We're we it quite happy at the balance struck in Geneva and Tunis which widely recognized the need Multistakeholder participation?

C) Is it necessary to redefine these roles in order to get to a better understanding of how we can cooperate better? Or is it not perhaps more useful to recognize that people and institutions wear many hats, play different roles simultaneously?

Best
Peter

Peter H. Hellmonds
<peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>
+49 (160) 360-2852

On 18.12.2013, at 02:04, avri <avri at acm.org> wrote:

Hi,

The respective rules as defined by governments do not reflect the actual roles of the various stakeholder groups.

This is a false underpinning to participatory governance, currently termed multistakeholderism. If one stakeholder can get away with misdefining
the roles and responsibility of all the other stakeholders, it makes working together almost impossible.

This is one of the flaws in the Tunis Agenda, a document that should be seen as a conversation starter, not as a final religious text.  Governments got together in Geneva & Tunis, they allowed a few of us 'lobby' them from the side lines and from just outside the tent, and then declared their own special role while minimizing the roles of everyone else.


avri

Sent from a T-Mobile 4G LTE Device



-------- Original message --------
From: "Peter H. Hellmonds" <peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu> 
Date: 12/17/2013 18:22 (GMT-05:00) 
To: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca> 
Cc: i-coordination at nro.net 
Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?] 


The "respective roles" are all enumerated in the Geneva Declaration of Principles. 

Peter H. Hellmonds
<peter.hellmonds at hellmonds.eu>
+49 (160) 360-2852

On 17.12.2013, at 17:41, "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca> wrote:

I agree with Milton. Not only revised -- we need to establish what are
these respective roles exactly *in the view of each stakeholder*. It
will be fun... :)

--c.a.

> On 12/17/2013 02:29 PM, Milton L Mueller wrote:
> I agree with Jeremy.
> Unless Brian and other IETF folks are going to take a crash course in international relations, political science, and institutional economics, their efforts to come up with a definition of 'governance' is likely to fall far short.
> 
> However, there is one aspect of the definition that badly needs to be revised. That is the reference to the "respective roles" of different stakeholder groups. As noted in my response to Adam, the division of stakeholders into "roles" was a reactionary modification of the definition insisted upon in the early stages of WSIS by a coalition of authoritarian and more conservative-thinking governments. We can and should revisit that part of the standard definition.
> 
> ________________________________
> From: i-coordination-bounces at nro.net [i-coordination-bounces at nro.net] on behalf of Jeremy Malcolm [jeremy at ciroap.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:51 AM
> To: i-coordination at nro.net
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] New: How do we dissect Internet governance? [Was: Europe at a tipping point?]
> 
> On 17/12/13 08:45, George Sadowsky wrote:
> The WGIG definition of Internet governance, the result of meetings in 2004-5, was the result of political compromise.  I think that it is not helping us here.  AS Brian says below, the notion of Internet governance mixes up too many things, and does not seem to be useful for addressing real issues.
> 
> Can we come up with a different vocabulary and a somewhat different structure that is much more consistent with our problem space, so that these different issues don't get confused (and yes, I understand that there may well be overlap between them)?
> 
> Brian, can you suggest some appropriate vocabulary and/or taxonomy?
> 
> The wording of the WGIG definition of Internet governance is almost identical to a widely cited definition of an international regime that has a considerable body of theory behind it.  So I would hesitate to throw it out because it is unfamiliar or threatening to those who are more familiar with technical aspects of Internet governance.
> 
> I also don't think that redefining the terms of the debate now, when governments and other stakeholders have already become comfortable with those terms and have been operating under them for years, is going to bring the stakeholders any closer together, if that is something that 1net is aiming to do.
> 
> If the terminology does not fit well with the technical community's self-defined problem-space, or seems to extend to issues that you think are not "real issues", then maybe it is that that problem space is too narrow, rather than that the terminology is inappropriate or that those broader issues are not real.
> 
> --
> 
> Dr Jeremy Malcolm
> Senior Policy Officer
> Consumers International | the global campaigning voice for consumers
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