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[I-coordination] ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet ecosystem

nathalie coupet nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com
Thu Dec 12 19:29:33 CET 2013


George,

Why don't we ask ICANN's architects to explain point-by-point the reason behind each grouping, each division? We could start from there and comment on what they said. If I have all these questions unanswered, I'm sure others might too.   And this would give us something tangible to work on.
If this was already done, please tell me how I can find this document.

Thank you.
 
Nathalie 


________________________________
 From: George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>
To: Nathalie Coupet <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet ecosystem 
 

Nathalie,  

Milton Mueller has always questioned ICANN's legitimacy, but he is in the minority.

I don't think that Bill Drake (University of Zurich) questions ICANN's legitimacy.

The tradeoffs are what we are trying to come to grips with as a community/industry.  If you are very interested, I suggest that you apply to the ICANN Fellowship program and try to attend an ICANN meeting.  I  note that others on the list have been helpful in steering you to some useful sources of information.

Regards,

George

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Nathalie Coupet wrote:

> Good morning George,
> 
> It can be hard to be enthusiastic about participating in ICANN's structure(s) when there seems to be such a deficit in legitimacy: Robert Mueller and Mr. Walker from the University of Zurich has well documented them. 
> If we could better understand the trade-offs of such organizational choices (bringing to light the hidden aspects of the iceberg), it might reduce the frustration of all participants and future volunteers at ICANN and inject some new blood in the WGs. 
> 
> 
> My .02 cents
> Nathalie
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 1:12 PM, i-coordination-request at nro.net wrote:
> 
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>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>  1. Re: Europe at a tipping point? (Carlos A. Afonso)
>>  2. East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany (Techno CAT)
>>  3. ICANN's role via-?-vis the Internet ecosystem and Internet
>>     goverance (George Sadowsky)
>>  4. Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet    Users?
>>     (Techno CAT)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:37:00 -0200
>> From: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] Europe at a tipping point?
>> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam at gmail.com>,    Peter Dengate Thrush
>>   <barrister at chambers.gen.nz>
>> Cc: "I-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
>> Message-ID: <52A7513C.1070908 at cafonso.ca>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Before we end up blaming just govs for everything bad in the world, let
>> us remind ourselves that the dictatorships or "authoritatian regimes"
>> are fundamentally sustained by big wigs of the private sector operating
>> within or outside their borders, with the help (or outright lead) of a
>> major power.
>> 
>> Now we have the "five-eyes" group of countries which are part of the
>> most massive, pervasive, permanent violation of private rights ever --
>> this pervasiness and massive no-barriers operation with state-of-the-art
>> techs, special legislation and money-is-no-object power involves five of
>> the so-called advanced democracies (yes, NZ and AU included), spying on
>> their own citizens at will, and on any other citizen in the world,
>> violating constitutions, bills of rights, fairness in trial and
>> prosecution, you name it. And the major objective is not security, is
>> economic leverage (latest case: Aussies unlawfully peeking into East
>> Timorese offices to gain leverage in an oil&gas exploration deal).
>> 
>> So, what is the decision? We band together in a Brancaleone bunch to
>> keep ourselves in a fringe and achieve nothing or try and work together
>> with those horribly untrustful guys, trying to converge to a reasonable
>> outcome of ensuring neutrality of the net, privacy, due process or law
>> and overall basic respect for human rights?
>> 
>> fraternal regards
>> 
>> --c.a.
>> 
>> On 12/10/2013 03:13 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:27 AM, Peter Dengate Thrush <
>>> barrister at chambers.gen.nz> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello Carlos,
>>>> One of the delights of the ccTLD world is the diversity of governance
>>>> models, including the varying degrees of government involvement, ranging
>>>> from complete government ownership and control to no government presence at
>>>> all.
>>>> 
>>>> What are the advantages ( assuming some) of having govt representatives
>>>> round the table in Brazil?
>>>> Is there a different kind of interaction (qualitatively or quantitatively)
>>>> between the reps. from Federal and the State rep?  Are there issues where
>>>> it would have been better to have had no government reps..,more?
>>>> 
>>>> I can imagine other cultures less "robust" than Brazil where the presence
>>>> of even 1 government official would have a chilling effect: is  having
>>>> government presence ever a problem in Brazil?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> At what time, now, in the past or at some arbitrary date in the future?
>>> 
>>> There have certainly been times within my lifetime when the rulers of
>>> Brazil would murder their political enemies. And the US was an active and
>>> willing participant in many of those crimes.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As a non-US citizen I get rather annoyed by the pom-pom waving celebrations
>>> of "US ideals" of freedom and justice given the very recent history of
>>> working for the dictators. I also get rather annoyed by the condescension
>>> that US politicians often display towards the countries whose progress
>>> their country has been disrupting.
>>> 
>>> No government has clean hands here. At the end of the cold war Margaret
>>> Thatcher claimed to be speaking on behalf of all the Western governments
>>> when she urged Gorbachev to send in the tanks to stop the fall of the
>>> Berlin wall.
>>> 
>>> The problem is that governments are made up of factions and just as  every
>>> country has a communist faction, every country has a fascist one. And most
>>> often those fascist tendencies bubble up to the surface in the corridors of
>>> power. When JFK asked the chiefs of staff for options on invading Cuba,
>>> they proposed false flag terrorist operations on US soil murdering US
>>> citizens as a pretext for the invasion. The better organized Italian
>>> fascists actually managed to carry out such an attack, the bologna railway
>>> bombing.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The fact that these fascist tendencies exist and are able to exercise power
>>> even in countries like the US is part of the reason that we need the
>>> Internet so that it can foil such plots by bringing them to light.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> I-coordination mailing list
>>> I-coordination at nro.net
>>> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:53:29 -0600
>> From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [I-coordination] East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet]
>>   Germany
>> To: i-coordination at nro.net
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAK41CSSZSqx+0eesO2s_6GwyVapDsk717fuoeq1vZOWp_kbskw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Stasi East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany
>> 
>> Clearly - Some Humans prosper very well in the Stasi [East] Internet
>> of the ISOC IETF ICANN IANA NRO ARIN APNIC LACNIC RIPE
>> 
>> ISOC - It Seeks Overall Control...of..
>> ...Protocol - Address Space - Name Space - and MONEY
>> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
>> "In 1975, Stasi recorded a conversation between senior West German CDU
>> politicians Helmut Kohl and Kurt Biedenkopf. It was then "leaked" to
>> the Stern magazine as a transcript recorded by American intelligence.
>> The magazine then claimed that Americans were wiretapping West Germans
>> and the public believed the story."
>> 
>> 
>> East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany
>> 
>> ...go West young people....P2P - Virtual Currency - C at T
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> @Techno_CAT_r
>> http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:56:58 -0500
>> From: George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [I-coordination] ICANN's role via-?-vis the Internet
>>   ecosystem and Internet goverance
>> To: i-coordination at nro.net
>> Message-ID: <DA5D6486-15D3-46CC-8154-194145ACA733 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> [I make these remarks in my individual capacity]
>> 
>> Bob Bruen is absolutely correct in that the US is not holding back the rest of the world in becoming involved in ICANN.  ICANN values inputs from all over the world.  The US government, while having some power with respect to delegations and redelegations of top level domains, has never interfered with any recommendations made by ICANN, and it would be political suicide for them to do so.
>> 
>> ICANN has the responsibility for administration a small but crucial element of the global Internet ecosystem, viz. the administration of the domain name andIP address space.  These elements are central to navigating the Internet, and are highly visible.  
>> 
>> The question of what is Internet governance received one answer from the Working Group on Internet Governance in 2004:
>> 
>>   www.wgig.org/docs/WGIGREPORT.pdf?
>> 
>> although there was some dissent and an alternative definition was proposed by some.,  
>> 
>> Much of what is called Internet governance should be called Internet administration.  A larger definition of Internet governance often includes functions that already exist in the non-Internet world, such as consumer protection, privacy and security of information, licensing of ISPs, acceptable use policies and laws for use of resources, trade agreements, intellectual property protection, etc.  Those issues are mostly at the national level, with some needing to be addressed internationally.  On the ISO/OSI stack they are mostly well above layer 7, and none of them are remotely within ICANN's remit.
>> 
>> ICANN is seeking a role in the improvement of Internet governance issues for mostly the same reason that we all are: to make the Internet a more efficient, effective, safer place for all of us to occupy and exploit.  The US connection has very little if anything to do with this.
>> 
>> The decentralized multi-stakeholder model that characterized the growth of the INternet ecosystem has provided all of us with an enormously powerful tool that has reshaped our lives.  If there is any connection between results and legitimacy, then the current model can claim as much legitimacy as anything else in the world.  There is surely room for improvement, but critics of the current system have an obligation to show conclusively that other options are at least as sound as what exists today.
>> 
>> George Sadowsky 
>> 
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:14:48 -0500 (EST)
>>> From: Bob Bruen <korg at coldrain.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] A different model
>>> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam at gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> Hi Phillip,
>>> 
>>> Your thoughtful email desverves more than I am about to give, but I want
>>> to make two points in response, because they relate to many other posts.
>>> 
>>> 1) The US does have a privileged position with ICANN. This is the result
>>> of history. The US invented the Internet and has driven much of its
>>> development. The US has not really done very much to influence ICANN's
>>> work, when it could have done more.
>>> 
>>> I understand the rest of the world wants more of a say in what ICANN does,
>>> but they are not being held back by the US. The ICANN meetings are filled
>>> with people from all over the world expressing their opinions. Many of he
>>> top positions in ICANN (eg CEO, COO, Compliance) are help by non-Americans
>>> Believe it or not, many Americans like the world wide input.
>>> 
>>> Attacking the US position is more of a attempt to take perceived power
>>> away from the US than anything else. Moreover, if ICANN were suddenly
>>> totally free or under the influence of some other government or group of
>>> governments, there is no evidence that things would be better. In fact,
>>> things could get much worse. For example, think about the UN Security
>>> Council's inability to do things, because one or two members veto a
>>> proposal.
>>> 
>>> 2) My second point is about the definition of Internet Governance, where
>>> you say the Internet is ungovernable and previously pointed out the
>>> difference between the technical view and the political view. I agree with
>>> you.
>>> 
>>> I am still looking for a definition of IG, not the policy choices, such
>>> "keep it free" and "stop spying," but what can be governed (like your
>>> control points) and how. I worked on a governance  committee at a college
>>> once. It was about sharing of power between the faculty and the president
>>> over runnning the college. It was clear what was being governed, the only
>>> issue was how.
>>> 
>>> Looking at the Internet, there seems to me that there is nothing to
>>> govern. Governments can try to control things like access and content, but
>>> only within their borders.  The rest of world is not subject to what a
>>> particular government chooses.
>>> 
>>> If you or anyone else can provide a base definition of IG, I would
>>> appreciate it. What does governing the Internet mean?
>>> 
>>>          --bob
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>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:12:23 -0600
>> From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [I-coordination] Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63
>>   Internet    Users?
>> To: i-coordination at nro.net
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAK41CSS-NshEMC-ekx9rQmjqgX5m2aH_vqseaVktd+WUqK-XAQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet Users?
>> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
>> "The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the
>> mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by
>> the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015
>> employees and 173,081 informants.[25] About one of every 63 East
>> Germans collaborated with the Stasi. "
>> 
>> Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet Users?
>> 
>> By the way - It is a common Internet Stasi "Trick"
>> to claim that they are speaking only for themselves
>> while they report back to their various institutions, Boards
>> and $$$$$ FUNders $$$$$
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> @Techno_CAT_r
>> http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-coordination mailing list
>> I-coordination at nro.net
>> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>> 
>> 
>> End of I-coordination Digest, Vol 3, Issue 68
>> *********************************************
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