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[I-coordination] A different model

Bob Bruen korg at coldrain.net
Thu Dec 12 17:05:20 CET 2013


Hi Phillip,

I am sorry someone hurt your feelings, but to slam Americans because 
someone accused you being anti-American with statements that sound 
anti-American, is not the best way to respond, in my opinion.

Now that I understand your problem, knowing that you are not going to 
change your mind, I am terminating my participation in this particular 
discussion as it is wasting bandwidth and people's time. Even though some 
may have found it entertaining, my guess is that most did not.

                  --bob

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Bob Bruen <korg at coldrain.net> wrote:
>
>       Hi Phillip,
> 
>
>       On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > Given that my opinions of the actions of the last administration are widely held in the country
> it is
> > obviously not the case that no Americans share them. Indeed I think virtually every member of
> the
> > current administration would agree with me on what should be done if not the political
> expediency of
> > doing so.
> 
> Again you are making wild, general statements without any facts to support
> them and you have not made explicit what you mean by "actions" and "what
> should be done."  It is quite difficult to solve problems without clarity
> of the nature of the problem.
> 
> 
> They held an election, my party won a majority of the popular vote in the Presidential, Senate and
> House races. Ergo there is support for my opinion of the last (i.e. Bush) administration.
> 
>
>       > But when someone who is not a US national raises an issue with a US government action
>       they will get the
>       > McCarthyite 'anti-American' smear and unless they also undermine their statement by
>       stating that not
>       > all Americans agreed with it they get the 'we are not all responsible' complaint you and
>       Ken just made.
> 
> Again, wild statements... Who exactly has criticized the US government and
> got the McCarthy treatment from whom? Where did the "not responsible" come
> from? Average Americans are not any more responsible than the average Brit
> is for what David Cameron does.
> 
> 
> I was accused of anti-Americanism earlier in the thread, that is what I was responding to.
> 
> Slamming his opponents as 'anti-American' is exactly what McCarthy did. That is why his committee was
> called the House Un-American Activities Committee.
> 
> If we are going to have a civil discourse then abusive behavior by the US has to be fair game for
> anyone to raise. Attacking views as 'anti-American' is not acceptable.
> 
>  
>       Keep in mind that the UK has been in bed with the NSA since the early days
>       of Echelon through today, along with the other three English speaking
>       countries. People who live in glass houses and all that.
> 
> 
> And people who suggest that this is a bad thing get slammed for being 'anti-Americanism'.
>
>       > What I am saying here is that you have to knock it off. My nationality does not mean I
>       have any less
>       > right to criticize your government than you do.
> 
> What exactly should I knock off? I have not said you have no right to
> criticize the US government. Do you mean I should stop holding you
> accountable for emotion-based statements instead of factual ones?
> 
> 
> I am not going to prefix every statement about US policy with a disclaimer that the US people are not
> responsible for it.
> 
>  
>       I criticize lots of governments and expect that I can continue do so. I
>       also expect that whatever I think is okay for me is okay for everyone.
>
>       You sound like someone burned you in the past and have not gotten over it.
> 
> 
> Read back through the thread and you will find the original statement.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> --
> Website: http://hallambaker.com/
> 
>

-- 
Dr. Robert Bruen
KnujOn Org
http://www.knujon.org
+1.802.579.6288


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