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[I-coordination] A different model

Phillip Hallam-Baker hallam at
Thu Dec 12 15:41:08 CET 2013

On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Bob Bruen <korg at> wrote:

> Hi Phillip,
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> > Given that my opinions of the actions of the last administration are
> widely held in the country it is
> > obviously not the case that no Americans share them. Indeed I think
> virtually every member of the
> > current administration would agree with me on what should be done if not
> the political expediency of
> > doing so.
> Again you are making wild, general statements without any facts to support
> them and you have not made explicit what you mean by "actions" and "what
> should be done."  It is quite difficult to solve problems without clarity
> of the nature of the problem.

They held an election, my party won a majority of the popular vote in the
Presidential, Senate and House races. Ergo there is support for my opinion
of the last (i.e. Bush) administration.

> But when someone who is not a US national raises an issue with a US
> government action they will get the
> > McCarthyite 'anti-American' smear and unless they also undermine their
> statement by stating that not
> > all Americans agreed with it they get the 'we are not all responsible'
> complaint you and Ken just made.
> Again, wild statements... Who exactly has criticized the US government and
> got the McCarthy treatment from whom? Where did the "not responsible" come
> from? Average Americans are not any more responsible than the average Brit
> is for what David Cameron does.

I was accused of anti-Americanism earlier in the thread, that is what I was
responding to.

Slamming his opponents as 'anti-American' is exactly what McCarthy did.
That is why his committee was called the House Un-American Activities

If we are going to have a civil discourse then abusive behavior by the US
has to be fair game for anyone to raise. Attacking views as 'anti-American'
is not acceptable.

> Keep in mind that the UK has been in bed with the NSA since the early days
> of Echelon through today, along with the other three English speaking
> countries. People who live in glass houses and all that.

And people who suggest that this is a bad thing get slammed for being

> What I am saying here is that you have to knock it off. My nationality
> does not mean I have any less
> > right to criticize your government than you do.
> What exactly should I knock off? I have not said you have no right to
> criticize the US government. Do you mean I should stop holding you
> accountable for emotion-based statements instead of factual ones?

I am not going to prefix every statement about US policy with a disclaimer
that the US people are not responsible for it.

> I criticize lots of governments and expect that I can continue do so. I
> also expect that whatever I think is okay for me is okay for everyone.
> You sound like someone burned you in the past and have not gotten over it.

Read back through the thread and you will find the original statement.

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