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[I-coordination] ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet ecosystem

Rafik Dammak rafik.dammak at gmail.com
Wed Dec 11 14:30:25 CET 2013


Hi Nathalie,


2013/12/11 Nathalie Coupet <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>

> Good morning George,
>
> It can be hard to be enthusiastic about participating in ICANN's
> structure(s) when there seems to be such a deficit in legitimacy: Robert
> Mueller and Mr. Walker from the University of Zurich has well documented
> them.
>

can you please share their works? I am not aware about  them.

Best,

Rafik


> Nathalie
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 1:12 PM, i-coordination-request at nro.net wrote:
>
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Europe at a tipping point? (Carlos A. Afonso)
> >   2. East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany (Techno CAT)
> >   3. ICANN's role via-?-vis the Internet ecosystem and Internet
> >      goverance (George Sadowsky)
> >   4. Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet    Users?
> >      (Techno CAT)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:37:00 -0200
> > From: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
> > Subject: Re: [I-coordination] Europe at a tipping point?
> > To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam at gmail.com>,    Peter Dengate Thrush
> >    <barrister at chambers.gen.nz>
> > Cc: "I-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
> > Message-ID: <52A7513C.1070908 at cafonso.ca>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Before we end up blaming just govs for everything bad in the world, let
> > us remind ourselves that the dictatorships or "authoritatian regimes"
> > are fundamentally sustained by big wigs of the private sector operating
> > within or outside their borders, with the help (or outright lead) of a
> > major power.
> >
> > Now we have the "five-eyes" group of countries which are part of the
> > most massive, pervasive, permanent violation of private rights ever --
> > this pervasiness and massive no-barriers operation with state-of-the-art
> > techs, special legislation and money-is-no-object power involves five of
> > the so-called advanced democracies (yes, NZ and AU included), spying on
> > their own citizens at will, and on any other citizen in the world,
> > violating constitutions, bills of rights, fairness in trial and
> > prosecution, you name it. And the major objective is not security, is
> > economic leverage (latest case: Aussies unlawfully peeking into East
> > Timorese offices to gain leverage in an oil&gas exploration deal).
> >
> > So, what is the decision? We band together in a Brancaleone bunch to
> > keep ourselves in a fringe and achieve nothing or try and work together
> > with those horribly untrustful guys, trying to converge to a reasonable
> > outcome of ensuring neutrality of the net, privacy, due process or law
> > and overall basic respect for human rights?
> >
> > fraternal regards
> >
> > --c.a.
> >
> > On 12/10/2013 03:13 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
> >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 5:27 AM, Peter Dengate Thrush <
> >> barrister at chambers.gen.nz> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Carlos,
> >>> One of the delights of the ccTLD world is the diversity of governance
> >>> models, including the varying degrees of government involvement,
> ranging
> >>> from complete government ownership and control to no government
> presence at
> >>> all.
> >>>
> >>> What are the advantages ( assuming some) of having govt representatives
> >>> round the table in Brazil?
> >>> Is there a different kind of interaction (qualitatively or
> quantitatively)
> >>> between the reps. from Federal and the State rep?  Are there issues
> where
> >>> it would have been better to have had no government reps..,more?
> >>>
> >>> I can imagine other cultures less "robust" than Brazil where the
> presence
> >>> of even 1 government official would have a chilling effect: is  having
> >>> government presence ever a problem in Brazil?
> >>>
> >>
> >> At what time, now, in the past or at some arbitrary date in the future?
> >>
> >> There have certainly been times within my lifetime when the rulers of
> >> Brazil would murder their political enemies. And the US was an active
> and
> >> willing participant in many of those crimes.
> >>
> >>
> >> As a non-US citizen I get rather annoyed by the pom-pom waving
> celebrations
> >> of "US ideals" of freedom and justice given the very recent history of
> >> working for the dictators. I also get rather annoyed by the
> condescension
> >> that US politicians often display towards the countries whose progress
> >> their country has been disrupting.
> >>
> >> No government has clean hands here. At the end of the cold war Margaret
> >> Thatcher claimed to be speaking on behalf of all the Western governments
> >> when she urged Gorbachev to send in the tanks to stop the fall of the
> >> Berlin wall.
> >>
> >> The problem is that governments are made up of factions and just as
>  every
> >> country has a communist faction, every country has a fascist one. And
> most
> >> often those fascist tendencies bubble up to the surface in the
> corridors of
> >> power. When JFK asked the chiefs of staff for options on invading Cuba,
> >> they proposed false flag terrorist operations on US soil murdering US
> >> citizens as a pretext for the invasion. The better organized Italian
> >> fascists actually managed to carry out such an attack, the bologna
> railway
> >> bombing.
> >>
> >>
> >> The fact that these fascist tendencies exist and are able to exercise
> power
> >> even in countries like the US is part of the reason that we need the
> >> Internet so that it can foil such plots by bringing them to light.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> I-coordination mailing list
> >> I-coordination at nro.net
> >> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:53:29 -0600
> > From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [I-coordination] East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet]
> >    Germany
> > To: i-coordination at nro.net
> > Message-ID:
> >    <CAK41CSSZSqx+0eesO2s_6GwyVapDsk717fuoeq1vZOWp_kbskw at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Stasi East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany
> >
> > Clearly - Some Humans prosper very well in the Stasi [East] Internet
> > of the ISOC IETF ICANN IANA NRO ARIN APNIC LACNIC RIPE
> >
> > ISOC - It Seeks Overall Control...of..
> > ...Protocol - Address Space - Name Space - and MONEY
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
> > "In 1975, Stasi recorded a conversation between senior West German CDU
> > politicians Helmut Kohl and Kurt Biedenkopf. It was then "leaked" to
> > the Stern magazine as a transcript recorded by American intelligence.
> > The magazine then claimed that Americans were wiretapping West Germans
> > and the public believed the story."
> >
> >
> > East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany
> >
> > ...go West young people....P2P - Virtual Currency - C at T
> >
> > --
> >
> > @Techno_CAT_r
> > http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:56:58 -0500
> > From: George Sadowsky <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [I-coordination] ICANN's role via-?-vis the Internet
> >    ecosystem and Internet goverance
> > To: i-coordination at nro.net
> > Message-ID: <DA5D6486-15D3-46CC-8154-194145ACA733 at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > [I make these remarks in my individual capacity]
> >
> > Bob Bruen is absolutely correct in that the US is not holding back the
> rest of the world in becoming involved in ICANN.  ICANN values inputs from
> all over the world.  The US government, while having some power with
> respect to delegations and redelegations of top level domains, has never
> interfered with any recommendations made by ICANN, and it would be
> political suicide for them to do so.
> >
> > ICANN has the responsibility for administration a small but crucial
> element of the global Internet ecosystem, viz. the administration of the
> domain name andIP address space.  These elements are central to navigating
> the Internet, and are highly visible.
> >
> > The question of what is Internet governance received one answer from the
> Working Group on Internet Governance in 2004:
> >
> >    www.wgig.org/docs/WGIGREPORT.pdf?
> >
> > although there was some dissent and an alternative definition was
> proposed by some.,
> >
> > Much of what is called Internet governance should be called Internet
> administration.  A larger definition of Internet governance often includes
> functions that already exist in the non-Internet world, such as consumer
> protection, privacy and security of information, licensing of ISPs,
> acceptable use policies and laws for use of resources, trade agreements,
> intellectual property protection, etc.  Those issues are mostly at the
> national level, with some needing to be addressed internationally.  On the
> ISO/OSI stack they are mostly well above layer 7, and none of them are
> remotely within ICANN's remit.
> >
> > ICANN is seeking a role in the improvement of Internet governance issues
> for mostly the same reason that we all are: to make the Internet a more
> efficient, effective, safer place for all of us to occupy and exploit.  The
> US connection has very little if anything to do with this.
> >
> > The decentralized multi-stakeholder model that characterized the growth
> of the INternet ecosystem has provided all of us with an enormously
> powerful tool that has reshaped our lives.  If there is any connection
> between results and legitimacy, then the current model can claim as much
> legitimacy as anything else in the world.  There is surely room for
> improvement, but critics of the current system have an obligation to show
> conclusively that other options are at least as sound as what exists today.
> >
> > George Sadowsky
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:14:48 -0500 (EST)
> >> From: Bob Bruen <korg at coldrain.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] A different model
> >> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam at gmail.com>
> >>
> >> Hi Phillip,
> >>
> >> Your thoughtful email desverves more than I am about to give, but I want
> >> to make two points in response, because they relate to many other posts.
> >>
> >> 1) The US does have a privileged position with ICANN. This is the result
> >> of history. The US invented the Internet and has driven much of its
> >> development. The US has not really done very much to influence ICANN's
> >> work, when it could have done more.
> >>
> >> I understand the rest of the world wants more of a say in what ICANN
> does,
> >> but they are not being held back by the US. The ICANN meetings are
> filled
> >> with people from all over the world expressing their opinions. Many of
> he
> >> top positions in ICANN (eg CEO, COO, Compliance) are help by
> non-Americans
> >> Believe it or not, many Americans like the world wide input.
> >>
> >> Attacking the US position is more of a attempt to take perceived power
> >> away from the US than anything else. Moreover, if ICANN were suddenly
> >> totally free or under the influence of some other government or group of
> >> governments, there is no evidence that things would be better. In fact,
> >> things could get much worse. For example, think about the UN Security
> >> Council's inability to do things, because one or two members veto a
> >> proposal.
> >>
> >> 2) My second point is about the definition of Internet Governance, where
> >> you say the Internet is ungovernable and previously pointed out the
> >> difference between the technical view and the political view. I agree
> with
> >> you.
> >>
> >> I am still looking for a definition of IG, not the policy choices, such
> >> "keep it free" and "stop spying," but what can be governed (like your
> >> control points) and how. I worked on a governance  committee at a
> college
> >> once. It was about sharing of power between the faculty and the
> president
> >> over runnning the college. It was clear what was being governed, the
> only
> >> issue was how.
> >>
> >> Looking at the Internet, there seems to me that there is nothing to
> >> govern. Governments can try to control things like access and content,
> but
> >> only within their borders.  The rest of world is not subject to what a
> >> particular government chooses.
> >>
> >> If you or anyone else can provide a base definition of IG, I would
> >> appreciate it. What does governing the Internet mean?
> >>
> >>           --bob
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 12:12:23 -0600
> > From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [I-coordination] Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63
> >    Internet    Users?
> > To: i-coordination at nro.net
> > Message-ID:
> >    <CAK41CSS-NshEMC-ekx9rQmjqgX5m2aH_vqseaVktd+WUqK-XAQ at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet Users?
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
> > "The Stasi infiltrated almost every aspect of GDR life. In the
> > mid-1980s, a network of IMs began growing in both German states; by
> > the time East Germany collapsed in 1989, the Stasi employed 91,015
> > employees and 173,081 informants.[25] About one of every 63 East
> > Germans collaborated with the Stasi. "
> >
> > Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet Users?
> >
> > By the way - It is a common Internet Stasi "Trick"
> > to claim that they are speaking only for themselves
> > while they report back to their various institutions, Boards
> > and $$$$$ FUNders $$$$$
> >
> > --
> >
> > @Techno_CAT_r
> > http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > I-coordination mailing list
> > I-coordination at nro.net
> > https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
> >
> >
> > End of I-coordination Digest, Vol 3, Issue 68
> > *********************************************
>
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