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[I-coordination] ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet

Nathalie Coupet nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com
Wed Dec 11 14:19:51 CET 2013


Hi All,


Correction: it was William Drake from the University of Zurich


Nathalie

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 11, 2013, at 8:00 AM, i-coordination-request at nro.net wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: A different model (Roland Perry)
>   2. Re: I-coordination Digest, Vol 3, Issue 70 (Nathalie Coupet)
>   3. Re: ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet ecosystem
>      (Nathalie Coupet)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 11:20:59 +0000
> From: Roland Perry <roland at internetpolicyagency.com>
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] A different model
> To: i-coordination at nro.net
> Message-ID: <tw3y+k3bqEqSFAVF at internetpolicyagency.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed
> 
> In message <52A7B205.5040800 at gmail.com>, at 13:29:57 on Wed, 11 Dec 
> 2013, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> writes
>> As George pointed out, there is a great gulf between administration of
>> the technical side of the Internet and regulation of the social and economic
>> impact of the Internet. Mixing these two up under the G-word has led to
>> enormous confusion of thought, not least right here on this list.
> 
> And also perpetuated by users constantly being encouraged to buy into 
> technical solutions for social/economic problems such as spam and 
> malware/viruses.
> -- 
> Roland Perry
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:39:25 -0500
> From: Nathalie Coupet <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] I-coordination Digest, Vol 3, Issue 70
> To: "brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com" <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
> Cc: "i-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
> Message-ID: <A9DCFD77-B708-4D80-B16E-87CD7EEFC34F at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
> 
> Good morning Brian and Jorge,
> 
> Separating both discussions and better explaining what the Internet is would be a great starting point. 
> Maybe we could create a WG that would clarify these points for all, especially for legislators and new comers. 
> We could present a report to the IGF, in Brazil or just as documentation for new comers in this debate. 
> 
> My .02 cents
> 
> Nathalie
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 11, 2013, at 6:00 AM, i-coordination-request at nro.net wrote:
> 
>> Send I-coordination mailing list submissions to
>>   i-coordination at nro.net
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>   https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>   i-coordination-request at nro.net
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>   i-coordination-owner at nro.net
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of I-coordination digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>  1. There are NO ICANN Critics - the Architect is    Always Correct
>>     (Techno CAT)
>>  2. Re: A different model (Brian E Carpenter)
>>  3. The Key Word is CONTROL - Partial or Overall (Techno CAT)
>>  4. Re: A different model (Jorge Amodio)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 17:09:35 -0600
>> From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [I-coordination] There are NO ICANN Critics - the Architect
>>   is    Always Correct
>> To: i-coordination at nro.net
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAK41CSQPMYQqJ6O11-GbDyRjbF7ycGYuBikVjTDBoakYd7mvTg at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> There are NO ICANN Critics - the Architect is Always Correct
>> 
>> http://www.jeffreykay.com/archives/vint_architect.jpg
>> 
>> Critics are SILENCED
>> 
>> http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/idna-update/2009-April/004489.html
>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rrg/current/msg07721.html
>> 
>> [The ISOC IETF used to threaten to kill people's parents with
>> fire-axes. Parents pass away... ending that option.]
>> 
>> There are NO ICANN Critics - the Architect is Always Correct
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> @Techno_CAT_r
>> http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 13:29:57 +1300
>> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] A different model
>> To: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "I-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
>> Message-ID: <52A7B205.5040800 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> 
>> Jorge,
>> 
>> On 11/12/2013 08:00, Jorge Amodio wrote:
>>>> 1) The US does have a privileged position with ICANN. This is the result
>>>> of history. The US invented the Internet and has driven much of its
>>>> development. The US has not really done very much to influence ICANN's
>>>> work, when it could have done more.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If you do some research about the history of the Internet you will find out
>>> that this is certainly not 100% true, so being point #1 does not give too
>>> much credit to the rest.
>> 
>> It's true that the US only *mostly* invented the Internet, since a few
>> foreigners were involved too, such as Louis Pouzin, but that doesn't affect
>> the truth of the last sentence. I've always regretted that ICANN was
>> founded in US jurisdiction (rather than CH which was my preferred option
>> at the time, or NL which others proposed). But all the same, USG influence
>> has been more threatened that real.
>> 
>>> Internet Governance does not stand for "governing" the Internet, and this
>>> is one of the interpretations that generates all sorts of conflicts,
>>> particularly when the term gets translated to other languages such as
>>> Spanish.
>> 
>> Indeed, it was a stupid choice of word from Day One.
>> 
>>> While not universally accepted, and still under discussion how to interpret
>>> it, out of WSIS 2005 there was some agreement on a "working" definition
>>> that says:
>> 
>> Does anyone have a shred of respect for anything that came out of WSIS?
>> 
>>> "Internet governance is the development and application by Governments, the
>>> private sector and civil society, in their respective roles, of shared
>>> principles, norms, rules, decision-making procedures, and programmes that
>>> shape the evolution and use of the Internet."
>> 
>> Try this and see if it makes sense:
>> 
>> "Atmosphere governance is the development and application by Governments, the
>> private sector and civil society, in their respective roles, of shared
>> principles, norms, rules, decision-making procedures, and programmes that
>> shape the evolution and use of the atmosphere."
>> 
>> As George pointed out, there is a great gulf between administration of
>> the technical side of the Internet and regulation of the social and economic
>> impact of the Internet. Mixing these two up under the G-word has led to
>> enormous confusion of thought, not least right here on this list.
>> 
>> The best thing the IGF (and the Brazil meeting) could do is ban the
>> G word and separate the two discussions.
>> 
>>   Brian
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 19:09:00 -0600
>> From: Techno CAT <mars.techno.cat at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [I-coordination] The Key Word is CONTROL - Partial or Overall
>> To: i-coordination at nro.net
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAK41CST3gPfDkcnc6UQ0Rh4UF4di1ahS9z2bDyXyfoNcE0BZxQ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> The Key Word is CONTROL - Partial or Overall
>> 
>> The Centralized 1984 Orwellian Model used by IANA ICANN ISOC IETF
>> claims Overall Control is Their Way... or you hit the highway...
>> 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1174.txt
>> 
>> A more natural and civilized model is Peer-2-Peer.
>> Recent disclosures [without IETF] of Virtual Currency help
>> to demonstrate what can be done.
>> 
>> Many people will not participate in the toxic
>> environment of the ISOC PIR IETF ICANN IANA Bully Culture.
>> They are building a better Internet. They have to protect their
>> work. They have no obligation to disclose their work to ICANN.
>> 
>> The Jack-Booted Thugs and Control Freaks who have dominated
>> the Internet Eco.System for decades are well-known and
>> documented. The vast majority of Internet users do not connect
>> directly to the legacy Internet. One-by-one they will be carefully
>> recruited to protect themselves and families from the Stasi Internet.
>> 
>> The Key Word is CONTROL - Partial or Overall
>> -- 
>> 
>> @Techno_CAT_r
>> http://Twitter.com/Techno_CAT_r
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 23:36:54 -0600
>> From: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] A different model
>> To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "I-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
>> Message-ID:
>>   <CAMzo+1bKyE1dHZG4ebZoFaC3uw=Vo2QOmgVwis44LJcdAUSxhA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> 
>> Hi Brian,
>> 
>> comments inline
>> 
>>> 
>>>>> 1) The US does have a privileged position with ICANN. This is the result
>>>>> of history. The US invented the Internet and has driven much of its
>>>>> development. The US has not really done very much to influence ICANN's
>>>>> work, when it could have done more.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If you do some research about the history of the Internet you will find
>>> out
>>>> that this is certainly not 100% true, so being point #1 does not give too
>>>> much credit to the rest.
>>> 
>>> It's true that the US only *mostly* invented the Internet, since a few
>>> foreigners were involved too, such as Louis Pouzin, but that doesn't affect
>>> the truth of the last sentence. I've always regretted that ICANN was
>>> founded in US jurisdiction (rather than CH which was my preferred option
>>> at the time, or NL which others proposed). But all the same, USG influence
>>> has been more threatened that real.
>>> 
>> 
>> "Mostly" true on the invention part, on the development side as I remember
>> international participation took off very quickly, particularly in
>> developed
>> countries that were already moving away from the technology and economics
>> dominated by the old CCITT and government controlled PTTs.
>> 
>> 
>>>> Internet Governance does not stand for "governing" the Internet, and this
>>>> is one of the interpretations that generates all sorts of conflicts,
>>>> particularly when the term gets translated to other languages such as
>>>> Spanish.
>>> 
>>> Indeed, it was a stupid choice of word from Day One.
>>> 
>> 
>> Very true.
>> 
>>> While not universally accepted, and still under discussion how to
>>> interpret
>>>> it, out of WSIS 2005 there was some agreement on a "working" definition
>>>> that says:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone have a shred of respect for anything that came out of WSIS?
>>> 
>> 
>> Hard to say, but it seems that it became a very lucrative career now full of
>> experts. We even have schools that teach on the subject.
>> 
>> It reminds me about the abundance on the early days of the Internet
>> of plenty of projects on paper (thick piles of yada yada) just looking to
>> milk the funds out of several international organizations, particularly from
>> the old continent.
>> 
>> 
>>>> "Internet governance is the development and application by Governments,
>>> the
>>>> private sector and civil society, in their respective roles, of shared
>>>> principles, norms, rules, decision-making procedures, and programmes that
>>>> shape the evolution and use of the Internet."
>>> 
>>> Try this and see if it makes sense:
>>> 
>>> "Atmosphere governance is the development and application by Governments,
>>> the
>>> private sector and civil society, in their respective roles, of shared
>>> principles, norms, rules, decision-making procedures, and programmes that
>>> shape the evolution and use of the atmosphere."
>>> 
>> 
>> Ohh, I agree with you. The definition is total vaporware and I believe just
>> a
>> compromise to have some outcome from the Tunis meeting and show that
>> the "experts" were not sun bathing in the Mediterranean Sea.
>> 
>> As George pointed out, there is a great gulf between administration of
>>> the technical side of the Internet and regulation of the social and
>>> economic
>>> impact of the Internet. Mixing these two up under the G-word has led to
>>> enormous confusion of thought, not least right here on this list.
>>> 
>> 
>> IMHO the issue is (as we can see now clearly with ICANN) that there is a
>> LOT of money in play, so being in the administrative and policy development
>> ecosystem became a very lucrative biz and career opportunity, and the
>> involved
>> parties will try to keep the ball rolling as long as possible.
>> 
>> I never seen on emails so many honorary titles and several paragraph
>> signatures
>> showing the collection and diversity of hats.
>> 
>> 
>>> The best thing the IGF (and the Brazil meeting) could do is ban the
>>> G word and separate the two discussions.
>>> 
>> 
>> That's a very clever suggestion, that will leave as with IF ...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> Jorge
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-coordination mailing list
>> I-coordination at nro.net
>> https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
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>> 
>> End of I-coordination Digest, Vol 3, Issue 70
>> *********************************************
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:00:43 -0500
> From: Nathalie Coupet <nathaliecoupet at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] ICANN's role vis-a-vis the Internet
>    ecosystem
> To: "i-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
> Cc: "george.sadowsky at gmail.com" <george.sadowsky at gmail.com>
> Message-ID: <EEA8A79B-E346-452C-81BC-7ABBB752A636 at yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii
> 
> Good morning George,
> 
> It can be hard to be enthusiastic about participating in ICANN's structure(s) when there seems to be such a deficit in legitimacy: Robert Mueller and Mr. Walker from the University of Zurich has well documented them. 
> If we could better understand the trade-offs of such organizational choices (bringing to light the hidden aspects of the iceberg), it might reduce the frustration of all participants and future volunteers at ICANN and inject some new blood in the WGs. 
> 
> 
> My .02 cents
> Nathalie
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 10, 2013, at 1:12 PM, i-coordination-request at nro.net wrote:
> 
>> Send I-coordination mailing list submissions to
>>   i-coordination at nro.net
>> 
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>   https://nro.net/mailman/listinfo/i-coordination
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>   i-coordination-request at nro.net
>> 
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>   i-coordination-owner at nro.net
>> 
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of I-coordination digest..."
>> 
>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>  1. Re: Europe at a tipping point? (Carlos A. Afonso)
>>  2. East [Internet] Germany vs West [Internet] Germany (Techno CAT)
>>  3. ICANN's role via-?-vis the Internet ecosystem and Internet
>>     goverance (George Sadowsky)
>>  4. Will ISOC ICANN... Co-Opt One of Every 63 Internet    Users?
>>     (Techno CAT)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:37:00 -0200
>> From: "Carlos A. Afonso" <ca at cafonso.ca>
>> Subject: Re: [I-coordination] Europe at a tipping point?
>> To: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam at gmail.com>,    Peter Dengate Thrush
>>   <barrister at chambers.gen.nz>
>> Cc: "I-coordination at nro.net" <i-coordination at nro.net>
>> Message-ID: <52A7513C.1070908 at cafonso.ca>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> 
>> Before we end up blaming



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